00:57:46 #startmeeting 00:57:46 Let the Jenkins meeting commence! 00:58:02 #info The meeting agenda can be found here https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Governance+Meeting+Agenda#GovernanceMeetingAgenda-JenkinsUserConferenceMeeting@SanFrancisco 00:58:47 Agenda Items 00:58:51 Future funding 00:59:12 Doni added a number of things 00:59:16 Where would you like to start 00:59:19 Future fundings 00:59:19 #topic Discussion about future funding source/plan / fiance report 00:59:26 Tyler is using a robot 00:59:34 recodring all things we are doing. 00:59:36 #info meetings are recorded and logged under meetings.jenkins-ci.org 00:59:46 LEt me show you the current project funding stuff. 01:00:06 I'll quickly summarize 01:00:09 where we spent money 01:00:18 we started collecting money a year and half ago 01:00:21 14020 01:00:24 dollars 01:00:30 5% 01:00:32 was taken 01:00:38 13,090.95 01:00:39 left 01:00:41 #info our financial management group/parent organization is the SPI http://spi-inc.org 01:00:41 more or less 01:00:45 major spending 01:00:49 500 dollars 01:00:49 #info aslanb is transcribing live 01:00:54 fixing a system 01:00:57 4000 stickers 01:01:00 1000 dollars 01:01:10 in past 18 months 01:01:14 raised 13000 01:01:17 spent 7000 01:01:21 have 6000 left 01:01:48 we can survive 7 more years 01:01:53 at this rate 01:02:04 We keep the assets in gold! Ha Ha 01:02:13 LEts engage the audience 01:02:20 Sorry about the transcription errors. 01:02:48 How do we feel about funding drives? 01:03:01 Taking people to conferences 01:03:12 Sending people across the ocean, and bringing them over here 01:03:21 We had a discussion at Scale 10 01:03:50 IRS issues 01:03:56 Targeted donership was not ok 01:04:42 In terms of number of donors: 120 01:04:50 Individuals vs corporations? 01:05:12 Feels like there are a lot of smaller donors 01:05:22 $20 or $30 dollars 01:05:28 Did anyone notice the last donation drive 01:05:39 A lot of people didn't notice. 01:05:49 For t5hose that didn't notice 01:06:19 We put a picture of koske (sorry for the mispelling) on the web page 01:07:11 IF there is reason for us to raise money we should try otherwise we shouldn't. 01:07:47 The difficulty with targeted donations, a lot of the time it doesn't match up with budgets of companies. 01:08:00 At the end of the year books are closing, making for more generous donations. 01:08:33 Audience: targeted donations, sponsor a plugin a lot of people would like. Essentially buying developer time through a sponsoring. 01:08:51 This has been identified before. 01:08:55 #idea perhaps we should do more of the grant proposals? 01:08:58 We have been talking about this. 01:09:17 The types of things we are talking about now are around the operations of the project. 01:09:18 #info we started using freedomsponsors.org that's somewhat related to this 01:10:12 I think the action we should pull out of this, that at the open source folsden conference. Travel grants, end of the year. 01:10:29 Targeted funds for travel grants (3,000). 01:10:33 #action project to start a targeted donation drive for FOSDEM travel grants 01:10:37 #chair kohsuke2 01:10:37 Current chairs: kohsuke2 rtyler 01:11:05 #agreed project to try a targeted donation drive for FOSDEM travel grangts 01:11:10 Next topic? Yes. 01:11:19 What do you all want to talk about? 01:11:35 We are trying to focus on what you would like to talk about? 01:12:03 What needs priority? 01:12:15 You tell us, we will go off list if you don't have anything? 01:12:51 Audience: Every session I have attended, Jenkins documentation has been bashed. How can we work to make this better? 01:12:51 #topic How can we fix documentation/make it better 01:13:12 abayer says "yes, dev documentation is hard and quite lacking" 01:13:18 Developer perspective is hard? If you don't know your way around, What do you do? 01:13:27 Any sugestions? 01:13:38 nothing worth doing was easy 01:14:04 Documentation: For users is in good shape. 01:14:05 jieryn: thanks for volunteering xD 01:14:17 Even a couple a books, training course. Better coverage. 01:14:23 Than the development of plugins. 01:14:30 Which what are we concerned about 01:14:37 there are jenkins books, there is jenkins $ training 01:14:38 Audience: Mainly the plugin one. 01:14:41 Yes it is lacking. 01:15:04 Audience: When should we write a plugin, if you do this is how you do it. 01:15:21 Audience: Very simple guidance, reference plugin, these are the interfaces. 01:15:34 Audience: A Workflow for making decisions in a development cycle.' 01:15:36 ? 01:15:53 i'll give you some credit here, the de facto plugin walk through is like 4 or 5 years old 01:16:04 Without getting to much into details, this kind of exists in the implemetnation of functioning code. 01:16:34 For popular extension points, directing developers to good example existing plugins could be a way. 01:16:58 Kohsuke2 knows the extension points cause he wrote them. 01:17:22 there already exists a wiki page which shows every plugin which implements every extension point 01:17:28 Audience: How are devs to konw? 01:17:31 and it automatically generated, so .. it shouldn't be out of date 01:17:36 #idea maybe a reverse map of the "extension point list" wiki page 01:17:46 jieryn: there's the issue of knowing which implementation point maps to a visual thing in the UI 01:18:01 nod 01:18:05 I think some level of curation is useful. 01:18:14 #action kohsuke to look into building a reverse mapping for extension points 01:18:40 Some stuff could be crowd sourced? 01:18:52 save yourself some effort, https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Extension+points already does this :) 01:19:03 (aslanb is transciribing conversations in the room) 01:19:03 Audience: Something to point a Newbie to standards. 01:19:23 Audience: Something you could do as a sample project, Maintain some maven archetypes. 01:19:24 jieryn: think more visual 01:19:43 jieryn: there's an issue of mapping something you see the Violations plugin adding to a page, and the extension point needed 01:19:55 I wonder what percentage of Jenkins users write plug ins. 01:19:55 #idea skeleton code generation for more extensions (ala jenkins.rb) 01:19:57 Audience: A easy solution, "If you want to do this way" point people to reference solutions. 01:20:18 rtyler: roger 01:20:31 Site map, for example based on a page, point to the code that needs manipulation. 01:20:32 #idea code generation hooked up in the UI --- "click this button if you add stuff here" 01:20:42 The problem is the lack of automation around that stuff. 01:21:05 hare_brain dropped the H-bomb 01:21:07 no bueno 01:21:07 ... that generates the new skeleton 01:21:25 Context menu in jenkins that could generate skeleton from existing code. 01:21:39 Kohsuke2 had begun a prototype of this type of thing. 01:21:51 However, some extension points are not tied to any UI. 01:21:53 #action kohsuke to talk more and open up his prototype extension point thingie 01:22:11 Those not focused on the UI, probably have deeper knowledge already. 01:22:32 If someone would like to develop a training course, Kohsuke2 is willing to work with you. 01:22:45 The motivation has been lacking obviously. 01:23:16 Audience: IS there any thought of getting a code review in process, stimulating comments. 01:23:39 Its a good idea, however not currently being done. 01:23:52 #topic How can we improve the stable releases 01:24:04 What can we do? 01:24:12 Increase and improve testing. 01:24:34 Audience: We saw issue in loading build history, when there are more than 20. 01:24:52 We aren't getting much feedback currenly 01:25:01 we ought to have plugin developers strive for validating their plugins, and then updating their requiredCore, to the latest LTS -- lets see real drive from the community to bump up their plugins and validate!! https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Plugin+Report+Card 01:25:19 We pick the candidates based on feedback and early usage in larger orginizations. 01:25:46 The perception could be that the newest release broke it, however it might be an intermediate. 01:26:03 Short of more automated testing, probably need more people in effort. 01:26:30 Audience: Question of releases, what is important to community, you asked us for survey. 01:26:33 eclipse has the concept of a release train where tons of plugins hop on board, we ought to do that with LTS 01:26:38 Audience: What is the strategy for what gets done? 01:26:58 How do we decide what gets done. 01:27:03 Audience: Process is unclear. 01:27:04 Fair 01:27:06 jieryn: I agree. I try to do that with at least some of mine, but I'm not good enough. 01:27:24 Small group that commit to core, it is what is important to them. 01:27:33 it is hard. 01:27:35 The rest of the community contributes plugins. 01:27:52 People report bugs, they get voted on, however does not translate to priority. 01:28:01 Best solution, is fix it yourself, and contribute it back. 01:28:16 Audience: We try do, however sometimes all we can do is make noise. 01:28:22 The survey was great last year. 01:28:29 We made UI improvements base on it. 01:29:06 We should start adding to the project meeting. (Currently its about processing the momemtum of the community) 01:29:09 #idea part of the project meeting should maybe address "project management" in a sense of what is prioritized, etc 01:29:16 Maybe we should add dedicated project management. 01:29:27 Audience: Ok with how it is. 01:29:42 #info to have your voice heard into what gets implemented, 1) fill in the survey 2) vote on issues 01:29:45 However what you are talking about is fair, we don't currently have a good mechanism, beyond this IRC. 01:30:09 We need more feedback to make prioritization. 01:30:35 Make it into an interesting bug and then push it. 01:31:16 Plugin developers can get prioritization because of the downstream communities of the plugin developers. 01:31:36 Do other open source projects have project managers? 01:32:21 We have a mailing list, we could send out what issues are being looked at in the short term by core team, illicit feedback before work is done,. 01:32:32 We talk about core team, it is really a federated group of people. 01:32:37 aslanb: ITYM elicit 01:32:40 aslanb: #info some have module maintainers. KDE for example has a module maintainers. 01:32:45 aslanb: illicit being rather different ;) 01:32:50 Federated band of misfits + cloudbees = new code 01:33:44 The challenge, as a developer, you are focused on problem. 01:33:57 #idea perhaps we should send out a bi-weekly report of what is being focused on, or at least being considered for future releases 01:34:02 But then you go do your thing, how do you get the knowledge back to the community. 01:34:06 the #topic is way off right now, oh wells 01:34:11 #info so far according to the running tally of the survey, documentation, examples, and quality does come high 01:34:18 they are the top two 01:34:25 As people got on the team, write a wiki about something your learning. 01:34:45 Maybe the plugin developers could do this. 01:34:50 Crowd source documenation. 01:34:50 #idea encourage plugin developers to document as they learn things in the core/extension points 01:35:04 However the adoption of this technique, didn't quite happen. 01:35:32 Maybe people are unsure of their own work in the plugin, so spreading it isn't a good idea (or at least as thought of as good idea) 01:35:34 just a random note about commenting / docblocks in jenkins core — it could be a lot better, at least that's my initial observation from poking around in core 01:35:47 I've written all of one piece of decent documentation - https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Gradle+JPI+Plugin 01:35:50 Maybe we just start writing documenation (good or bad), then fix it if you need to. 01:35:54 And that's no better than decent. 01:36:06 You are encouraged to fail fast. 01:36:07 some functions aren't doced, some are, what standards there are appear to be all over the place 01:36:10 Even in your docs. 01:36:13 Then fix it. 01:36:34 Maybe that is the way to do it. 01:36:38 #topic next meeting 01:37:10 Some of the highlights: 90% people consider it mission critical. 01:37:27 #idea I suggest October 10th 01:38:00 Jenkin survey stats... 01:38:16 We will get to the details when the survey is finished. 01:38:17 #topic next meeting time 01:38:31 Oct 19th Wednesday 01:38:39 Oct 17th 01:38:58 #agreed Oct 17th 2012, next meeting 01:39:07 #endmeeting