18:00:52 #startmeeting 18:00:52 Let the Jenkins meeting commence! 18:01:05 cburroughs (meeting now, please wait a bit with followup questions) 18:01:11 #chairs rtyler danielbeck kohsuke 18:01:43 #info https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Governance+Meeting+Agenda 18:01:56 I'm going to sneak in one more topic about rebundling plugins 18:02:27 #topic Recap last meeting's actions 18:02:42 there were none. 18:02:57 any news about #jenkins-meeting? 18:03:09 fredg, wait for 10years 18:03:11 fredg Still on my list of things to do 18:03:31 ok:) 18:03:47 #topic Jenkins certification 18:04:20 no recap? 18:04:44 KostyaSha: I thought danielbeck said there's none, because the last week we only talked about LTS RC status check 18:04:54 KostyaSha http://meetings.jenkins-ci.org/jenkins/2015/jenkins.2015-07-22-18.01.html action items: (none) 18:05:03 We'd like to come up with a certification program for Jenkins users and admins 18:05:17 Something people can put on their resumes to show off 18:05:20 for example kohsuke didn't contact bot owner that was planned for backup channel logging 18:05:54 I'm afraid there's no progress to report on that one 18:06:00 either give op to danielbeck so he can confirm it instead of you 18:06:21 maybe such actions can be added to MEETING, as people remember them 18:06:21 #action kohsuke to give channel ops to danielbeck 18:06:39 (if you know the command that I need to run please let me know) 18:06:45 one sec 18:07:01 I propose we move discussions of past meetings (before the previous one) to the end. Otherwise we'll never get to discuss anything. 18:07:15 Can I resume the certification stuff? 18:07:28 please 18:07:53 Right, and certification is also useful for employeers to filter applicants 18:08:55 kohsuke: will this be a source of income for the project? 18:09:09 or why does upstream getting involved? 18:09:10 I was told that CB is happy to pay the bill to get that certificate test developed, but I want to make it the community's thing 18:09:41 and what do you want certify? 18:09:50 So the certification should be something like LPIC for Linux? 18:09:53 button clicking? workflow? 18:10:05 I need to check on whether this is supposed to be money-making thing or not, but I don't think it is. 18:10:19 IOW this will not be a source of income for anyone 18:10:26 kohsuke: How a customer could know choose between several certifications ? (if one day several company offer it) 18:10:43 https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/How+to+report+an+issue good point for certification :) 18:11:33 I suppose that anyone could propose some trainings and certifications about Jenkins. How could we control this ? (at list be aware of them?) 18:11:43 trademark usage? 18:11:57 danielbeck good point 18:12:07 At this point, there's a small committee being launched to discuss how to do this, and I'm looking for someone from the community in there to provide supervision 18:12:16 ... plus report it back to the broader community 18:12:18 kohsuke, maybe you can try with CB Jenkins Enterprise certification and then share results? 18:12:39 i think you already have some docs and trainings for it 18:13:19 I believe that's also in the works, but if that's the only certification I think it's a weak story 18:13:45 ... for obviously a lot more people care about being a Certified Jenkins Administrator than being a Certified CloudBees Jenkins Platform Administrator 18:13:57 kohsuke, well jenkins "community" has pure documentation 18:14:19 And I truly believe something like this helps lift the tide for the whole community 18:14:22 for passing certificaiton you of course need materials and documentation and only CBJE has good docs 18:14:42 Not really, training and certification are decoupled. 18:15:16 IOW, I expect people here will be able to take a certificaion test and get certified without any extra training. 18:15:16 kohsuke, my suggestion was to revert steps, CBJE first (as you already has good docs/trainings and resources) and then cut some FOSS part into Jenkins Certification 18:15:36 Training and certification could be good motiviation to improve the documentation 18:16:02 kohsuke, how i will certify newbies or people that think that they know jenkins? After they fail on the first question they will need docs that still in very bad state (confluence;) 18:17:09 kohsuke, and on this talk i'm alone from FOSS side? :) 18:17:29 We don't need to talk about how we develop materials & tests here --- the whole point of having someone from the community in that committee is so that s/he can participate in that discussion 18:17:57 kohsuke: I am opened to have that discussion 18:18:20 (like I said training & certification are decoupled and the existing training material does not translate to tests) 18:18:30 though, I still wonder what is the motivation for community? why are we doing this? 18:19:01 ogondza, like any other certificate - for MANAGERS 18:19:07 and $$ 18:19:23 * KostyaSha IMHO 18:19:42 I think there are multiple reasons, but I agree with KostyaSha that it is ultimately the same reason why everyone else does it. 18:20:06 It gives a bit more recognition to the people who knows Jenkins 18:20:24 It makes it more than something you claim --- it adds some degree of objective validation 18:21:15 1 level: jenkins slave, 2 level jenkins master :D 18:21:24 I'm also hoping that it will help build a network among us 18:22:11 imho everything in jenkins ends into bugs&development :( jenkins needs more experienced developers :( 18:22:21 the idea seems ok. though I think there's a lot of upkeep required for a certification program: making sure it's hard enough so that it's worth something, making sure the test doesn't get stale over time, administration... 18:22:23 Or it will allow Joe in Acme Corp to add this to his employee development program for this quarter. 18:22:38 It's not difficult to imagine how enabling managers to easily hire Jenkins experts can help the community grow. 18:23:09 danielbeck, define "jenkins expert" :) 18:23:09 orrc: right, we brought the consultants to lead the effort --- they've done something similar for PHP in the past, so they are experienced. 18:23:39 KostyaSha Using it in large scale projects is difficult enough. Details will need to be hashed out of course. 18:23:45 they need what they call "subject matter experts" to come up with tests, but they have methodology to statistically narrow them down to the right set of questions, etc. 18:24:03 danielbeck, even small installation may have difficulties :( 18:24:56 ok. so is the idea is that the community funds the ongoing costs of the certification scheme, but breaks even via licensing / certification fees? 18:25:32 I need to double-check on the cost & revenue structure. My apologies that I haven't done that homework. 18:25:51 I don't have a good insight into the level of ongoing maintenance cost of such scheme. 18:26:17 danielbeck, if you have large jenkins installation, then you are already jenkins developer :) 18:26:18 But a part of the reasons I'm looking for somebody on that "certification advisory board" is to find out about those things and report back to us for final Y/N 18:26:56 ogondza, ? :) 18:27:06 In terms of the commitment, ot 18:27:27 In terms of the commitment, we are looking for 3 or 4 more meetings with 1-2hr each 18:27:59 I see this as an opportunity to make Jenkins look more established and to improve the documentation we have 18:28:13 And I think we really need this person to be unrelated to CB. 18:28:13 and update confluence! /o/ 18:28:22 ogondza: yeah 18:28:53 kohsuke: sign me in 18:29:11 great 18:29:22 is the outlook so far good for us as a whole? 18:30:01 I'd think if it worked for PHP it'll work for us. 18:30:09 looks like there are some concerns about contents and cost, but no opposition to the idea 18:30:20 I wonder about who will administer the training, and the general flow of money. but the idea is fine 18:30:29 +1 for the general idea 18:30:30 orrc: +1 18:30:43 Let's make sure we cover those grounds for sure 18:31:08 #agreed ogondza will be on the certification advisory board 18:31:17 shall we move on to the next topic? 18:31:42 #topic Approval of new Patron program messages 18:31:49 https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Patron+of+Jenkins+program 18:31:51 kohsuke, /msg ChanServ FLAGS #jenkins danielbeck +O 18:32:07 KostyaSha: thanks, done 18:32:14 thanks 18:32:39 we started this program last year and it went well enough 18:32:49 so the project got quite a bit of money from it 18:32:54 ~3k per quarter 18:33:20 danielbeck: what's the new messages to approve? I don't see them in https://github.com/jenkinsci/patron 18:33:32 unfortunately it wasn't passed on properly due to a change of role, and we're reviving it now 18:34:13 Turns out we got donations and didn't put up the messages they paid for, including the current quarter 18:34:16 right, the last one is 2014Q4 18:34:44 We're currently working this out with the donors so they get extra message time for their back donations 18:34:59 and I'd like to get approval for the 2015Q3 messages by CloudBees today. 18:35:05 http://jenkinsci.github.io/patron/tester.html?caption=Ensure+Optimal+Configurability&link=https%3A%2F%2Fpages.cloudbees.com%2FWebsite_7WaysOptimizeJenkins.html&blurb=Is+your+Jenkins+Continuous+Integration+Environment+Optimally+Configured+%3F&logo=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cloudbees.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fcb-logo-clr.r-square78x78.png 18:35:11 http://jenkinsci.github.io/patron/tester.html?caption=Jenkins+At+Scale+is+Easier+Than+You+Think&link=https%3A%2F%2Fpages.cloudbees.com%2Frs%2Fcloudbees%2Fimages%2FCloudBees-Jenkins-Enterprise-Plugins-Ebook.pdf&blurb=Get+OSS+Jenkins+Plus+Some+Enterprise+Robustness&logo=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cloudbees.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fcb-logo-clr.r-square78x78.png 18:35:54 One of them links to a PDF and the link is too long, I asked for a different URL and/or a landing page, but otherwise I'd like to get approval for these messages for the current quarter. 18:36:14 I hope changing the URL afterwards is not a problem with you. 18:36:35 Yeah I think it's OK 18:36:40 changing URL, that is 18:37:05 I'll refrain from commenting on messages, though I think it's in line with the tones of the past messages 18:37:13 #info https://github.com/jenkinsci/patron/blob/gh-pages/messages.xml for the past messages 18:38:20 any +1, -1, etc? 18:38:29 looks ok, I guess 18:38:30 those are fine. what's the general approval process again? each request comes to this meeting, or to the board members via jenkinsci-patrons, etc? 18:38:48 lgtm 18:38:52 the project meeting approves the messages 18:39:25 we broke the process a bit this time because due to a miscommunication CB sent the donation early 18:39:40 ok, done, close INFRA-315 ;) 18:39:43 INFRA-315:wiki advertising is showing blank adverts (Open) https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/INFRA-315 18:39:53 lgtm if it not for jira/wiki 18:39:57 #agreed proposed CB messages are OK 18:40:32 closed 18:40:51 shall we move on to next topic? 18:41:09 yes 18:41:11 Should we put Xebia's current message for now until they come up with a new one? 18:41:26 I guess we don't have to re-approve that one 18:41:39 #topic JUC travel grant 18:41:47 kohsuke Haven't heard back from them what message they want... wouldn't want to put up a year old message... 18:41:53 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/jenkinsci-dev/LiqsANj4Lvc 18:41:59 np 18:42:13 We had this topic in the past 18:42:19 but nothing came from it 18:42:32 supporting community members' travel to Jenkins conferences 18:43:13 so now I was asked whether we could support Pradeepto Bhattacharya's travel to the US JUC 18:43:34 since we considered this in the past I brought it up on the dev list 18:43:42 be careful, we have experience that some persons sending such requests to leave their country forever 18:44:25 who's "we"? 18:44:44 was in org members in http://lvee.org 18:45:21 My recollection of earlier conversations is that the general idea of sponsoring a travel for up to a specific budget / year has a good support 18:45:28 note that he attended JUC London already, and will attend JUC US West -- but it's a major expense for him. 18:45:46 for me expensive attending any JUC, but i'm ok ;) 18:46:20 Where we are unclear is what bar would a proposal needs to pass to be considered benefitial to the community. 18:46:48 right, we stopped the previous discussion around the topic of community benefit 18:47:17 in this case, he's a repeat speaker, but not active in the community beyond local meetups. 18:47:35 Pradeepto's profile is available at e.g. https://www.cloudbees.com/jenkins/juc-2015/abstracts/europe/02-02-1400-bhattacharya 18:47:58 Director of Engineering can't travel? 18:48:19 And I thought sponsoring a visit to a conference seems to be generally accepted practice 18:48:24 Here's one for FreeBSD: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/accepting-travel-grant-applications-for-eurobsdcon-2013.40910/ 18:48:57 kohsuke, yes, idea is good, but criterias unclear. Maybe do it as random lottery? 18:49:17 (then there's a related separate issue about JUC being described as a commercial conference, which I want to discuss further) 18:49:39 grep contributors from last 3 months | sort | unique | grep -v CB-employees 18:49:47 KostyaSha: I don't want loterry 18:50:38 like was said last time, it's hard to judge return on investment 18:50:51 but I agree with the allocation of a budget per quarter, as hare_brain mentioned 18:51:11 I think we need to start somewhere and adjust over time 18:52:24 I liked that Pradeepto is passionate enough about Jenkins that he's paying out of his own pocket to come to these events 18:52:58 Is JUC free for speakers? 18:53:12 wrt budget, IIRC the number floated was to set aside $2K/year and use it to support 2 people for $1K each 18:53:37 KostyaSha: I'm pretty sure, yes. And for people in the "ask the experts" community room. 18:53:57 * orrc checks flight prices from Frankfurt to California in September 18:54:04 yeah, JUC speakers get in free 18:54:23 orrc: I'd love to have you over, too 18:54:24 orrc, do you need visas? 18:55:15 I think $2k/year is a good starting point, though maybe with max $500 per visit? 18:55:40 that could help cover more shorter distance trips, e.g. people to FOSDEM? 18:55:52 kohsuke, freebsd firstly targeted to developers 18:55:57 OK, so you want to go for more people 18:56:27 I'm fine with that. 18:56:31 for this particular case, I don't really see the benefit as it's a repeat talk, but we need to start somewhere. and I know, from talking to Alyssa in 2013 about sponsoring me to JUC West, she mentioned some budget could come from sponsors 18:56:45 such benefit may attract more jenkins devs imho 18:56:50 so I think sponsoring this guy could work, just not all from the OSS side perhaps 18:57:01 orrc: +1 18:57:48 JUC is a big money loser so I don't want people to think that we have other funding sources readily available 18:58:13 but anyway, I think we have a consensus 18:58:46 If this being a repeat talk is a problem, perhaps we can think of this as retroactively sponsoring his JUC Europe visit that has already happened. 18:58:53 :) 18:59:20 danielbeck: is this good with you? 18:59:48 consensus is up to 500 USD per person so we get to sponsor more? 18:59:51 Let's make sure we'll interview him and post it as a blog. Give visibility to the program and him 18:59:56 from the total of 2k per year 19:00:00 Right 19:00:21 oleg-nenashev, how much cost you to travel from Russia? 19:00:24 Let's also aim for bringing someone to FOSDEM 19:00:34 and we're going to sponsor Pradeepto as an experiment, and milk him for a blog post and travel report? 19:00:36 And SCALE14x 19:00:47 danielbeck: yes 19:00:48 danielbeck, and twitter spamming :) 19:00:52 +1 for bringing ppl to FOSDEM 19:01:21 and encourage them to give a Jenkins related talk ;) 19:01:33 fredg: right 19:01:44 maybe better ask him upgrade confluence? 19:01:57 sounds great. I'll work with Pradeepto on writing about this. 19:02:19 Should we establish a formal process for applying in the future? 19:02:30 since it's now a real thing 19:02:33 yes, please 19:02:38 yes, at least having a wiki page with this stuff would be great 19:02:45 yeah 19:02:52 Alright, I'll work out a draft 19:02:58 orrc, ro page?) 19:03:12 I need to go now, I hoped to talk about plugin rebundling but I guess I'm not going to get time 19:03:14 #action danielbeck to work with Pradeepto on blog post and travel report 19:03:27 #action danielbeck to write draft wiki page on new travel grant program 19:03:48 #topic next meeting 19:04:03 8/19, same time 19:04:14 #info and please see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/jenkinsci-dev/kRobm-cxFw8 19:04:22 #endmeeting